Catullus and Sappho Comments

1) The mathematical comparisons Cattalus uses are somewhat related to the artistic vein all the artists have. It’s very common to artists use mathematics as a reference because nature itself is made out of all mathematical concepts like the Fibonacci numbers, the PI, etc.
Catallus clearly has a vision of love in a very ordered and rational way. The usage of the words “total”, “length”, and “sum” shows a perception of beauty that is carefully measured and put in place. Is he trying to find the perfect body on those women that might be not so perfect? Or is he vision of love depicted? Like in mathematics putting two plus two is four, the author in his writing is trying to add love with physical beauty as one.

2) Poem 32 seems to me to be a very passionate and sexual orientated poem. The poem is showing how the author desires to see, feel and make love to his loved one in the name of love. However seems to me that the loved one is a “difficult” one or even a person who doesn’t really accept the authors love fully “Honestly, if you want it, give the order”.
Poem 33 is a satirical poem but still very societal orientated. The father being the thief and the son the prostitute how more dysfunctional this family can be? I loved the fact the author used the characters social characteristics – one being thief and the other prostitute – to bring them down and question whether or not they have credibility.
Poem 47 shows how a love of a man can blind him from seeing the reality and find excuses to explain his loved one. The poem reflects his hate and disgust of all those men that have sex with the woman he loves but never throw on her the guilt of having sex with other men.

3) Romantic love is a very debatable concept. Love is an emotion and no definition can made to make it universal. However according to the Dictionary of Contemporary English from Longman, romantic is “someone who shows strong feelings of love and likes doing things that are connected with love such as buying flowers, presents, etc.”
So if I use these two concepts and put them together it means that romantic love is purely material, money related and completely unattached to the true feelings because the word romantic is only “connected with love.” For me as a foreigner and English being the third language, the rational usage of the language is extremely important because I must rely on what academics taught me to understand what happens around me in English however I strongly disagree with this dictionary and language type of explanation. Romantic love is an utopia type of love that often occurs in the beginning of a relationship and only at a some level is carried to the development of that same relationship. Romantic love for me is a love that occurs when you think about that special person and you envision a relationship made out of only good things and nothing else. But the question arises: how romantic can you be if love is the feeling that comes after passion and falling in love with. Do we really love when we are being romantic? Love doesn’t need an adjective/noun to characterize it. Love itself has enough power and strength to carry its own meaning. Probably in the world of today we need to catalog everything and that’s why we called it romantic love, sick love, dangerous love, obsessive love, fatal love… Love can be romantic but can someone romantic love?

CATULLUS AND SAPPHO

I have noticed the mathematical comparisons Cattulus has made, using words such as ‘length’, ‘total’, and ‘sum’ to describe Quintia. Because of these words, it can be said that Catullus believes love and beauty to be an exact science, with his personal beliefs being law. You could tell that he believes his word to be distinctly different because in poem 86 he says, “Many find Quintia stunning”. ‘Many’ people find this particular woman stunning, but him. He has his own particular vision of what love truly is.

Poem number 32 seemed to be talking about his desire to copulate with his wife, but he seems to be doing this in a satirical manner. He is telling her to get ready for the pleasure that he is about to make her experience. He does not seem to be fearful of showing his sexual desires to women. Poem 33 seems to be talking about the homosexuality of a father and a son. The sun in the father ‘skulk’ around, as if they are doing things out of the ordinary/peculiar. Clearly Cattulus holds the father with the most blame because he actually preys on others, but his son acts as a prostitute showing his ‘fundament’. I felt that his commentary on the issue of homosexuality was quite blunt and very serious. In comparison to poem 32, 33 has a tone of anger and disgust rather than satirical and natural. Poem number 41 speaks about a prostitute that apparently tries to take money from him, and in the end he true worth as a reliable individual is tarnished. The last line which makes reference to ‘bronze’ was interesting to me because it seems as if the concept of race, rather than social class, is being used. I feel that his social commentary are especially valuable today, because we live in a world that makes covert and secret resistance to our supposed quarrels within society. While I do not personally agree with Cattulus’, I do feel that if we don’t agree with something than it must be confronted head on in a social setting rather than in covert spheres.

My personal definition of romantic love would definitely have to be: a true flexible bond capable of evolution. In this abstract definition I have outlined my most cherished views. Truth is most important because anything less and the relationship is unequal. Flexible because my significant other must be able to deal with my personality, which fluctuates often and sporadically. Lastly I use evolution because over a span a supposed lifetime, I will go through physical changes (old age) that she will have to contend with.

Jonathan Yeung reaction to Catullus and Sappho

In poem 86, Catullus uses a number of mathematical terms to express his ideals of the female form. This to me tells me that he is a huge nerd, and he would never be able to smooth talk a woman into his bedroom, because most of them won't be able to understand him. Describing Quintia he says “There’s no spice at all in the length of her body!” He is trying to say even though Quintia is a tall and attractive lady; she is missing that special spark that would make her truly remarkable. And because she lacks this sparkle she does not compare to Lesbia, whom does poses this sparkle. He also uses mathematics to describe the womanly body because to him it's all a numbers game.

The major theme Catullus discusses in detail in Carmen 32, 33, and 37 is human sexuality.

I think Catullus commentary on human sexuality in Carmen 32 is not very valuable for our modern era. In Carmen 32 Catullus espouses unto us the virtues of consecutive midday sex with prostitutes.

In Carmen 33, Catullus describes a thief in the bathhouse as catamites, as a man who likes to have sex with his dad. The thief and his dad are told to go to hell because the thief’s son isn’t worth enough to even be a male prostitute. I love Catullus.

In Carmen 37, Catullus is in love with a prostitute. He seems very much distraught over the idea of hundreds of men not wanting to have sex with the girl he loves; they are not enjoying the best of life has to offer like he is, and are instead too busy making love to a hairy celtiberian man with shady pubic hair.

My personal definition of love is just as cold hearted and calculated as Catullus. But Instead of using mathematics to formulate the equation of love, I like to use science. Love is nature’s way of keeping the couple who've have had sex to stay together and raise their helpless newborns. Love is a beautiful, compelling, and exhilarating experience! So I have been told. I have yet to experience this physiological and chemical process called love, hmm I wonder why that is.

1- It seems that Catullus uses mathematical comparison in order to describe Lesbia’s beauty in a more vivid way. He says, “Lesbia is stunning” while concerning Quintia he states, “I find her attractive.” Even though many find Quintia stunning, Catullus was only able to find such a description in Lesbia because she is the one that he loves. As the saying goes “ A dunkey's mother finds her son a stallion.”

2- #32 Catullus is talking to Ipsitilla who is a prostitute. He is telling here that he is coming at nine and not to take another client. He is only interested in having sex with her, and I do not think he has any feelings for her. He is being insensible and very demanding.

#33This poem is about a father and son, Vibennius and Vibennius Junior. Vibennius is a thief and his son a prostitute. The father is a good thief, due to what was stated by Catullus “ O greatest of thieves skulking about the bathouses.” It also seems that the son is a bad looking dude ,“And you, son, couldn't sell that hairy ass of yours for a penny.”

#37 In this poem he is talking to his comrades and seems to be upset with them. He is telling them that they are not the only one’s that have penises and are permitted to have sex with as many girls as they want. He is threatening them to “ force you 200 sitters together to perform oral sex on me?” also he is talking about the women that he love more than any other man will love a girl.

3-Romantic love is when two individuals are willing to do anything for one another, regardless of the consequences that may be at hand. Their love to one another is limitless so they say. They will live together through the bitter and sweat. No obstacle can divide them from each other. And to them it may feel that they can not live without one another. However, such perfection is rare and is usually destined to fade soon. " so they say"

Anthony Garafola-Catullus Comments

There is no doubt that Catullus seems to love Lesbia or what he seems to think is love. He uses concrete terms such as “sum” and “total” to describe a women’s beauty, which demonstrates how narrow minded Catullus seems when envisioning a women’s beauty. Even though I think he is narrow minded when envisioning the beauty of a women he expresses more feeling for Lesbia over Quintia or any other women for that matter. When he uses logical terms as in math, there is only one result to the problem; the answer will always be the same. There is no deviation from the problem; math is concrete and this is the same way he thinks of women.

#32- Catullus is talking to a woman named Ipsitilla, who he seems to know since he refers to her as “my darling, my sophisticate beauty.” He wants to meet her for a late rendezvous and does not want her to take “another client,” which I am lead to believe that she is a prostitute. His only interest is to have sex with her. He does not want to spend time with her or even take her to dinner. For one he wants to meet her at 9pm and second has already eaten. So it is clear that he is a pig and has only one thing on his mind.

#33- This poem is quite weird. There is a father and son who are as thick as thieves or who are actually thieves. The father is better known as a thief but the son seems to be a slacker. I think that there might also be an underlying mention of prostitution. The father and son are “skulking about the bathhouses.” So either they are trying to prostitute or wait for the perfect opportunity take advantage of those who leave there personal affects around. The poem also states that the son is “Peddling his voracious fundament,” and the mention of how he “couldn’t sell that hairy ass of yours for a penny.” He seems to be a thieving prostitute but can’t seem to turn tricks so maybe that is why he and the father resort to thievery.

#37- He is in a tavern talking to these mail prostitutes or what seems to be. He says how these men are greedy and think that they are the only men that are there. The main thing that stuck out to me in this poem is that he is a bully, which I think is why he is too tough with these men. He calls these men “puny” and how he will “draw dicks” all over the front of your tavern,” which clearly shows how much he thinks of himself. He also mentions how the girl he is in love with is making love to only good and rich men. So he must think highly of this girl since she is only worthy of sleeping with men of wealth but if you ask me they are all disgusting.

Love, sex, and deception are the common links between these three poems. They are all different in the way sex is displayed and explained but they are all through prostitution and deception. He claims to love this woman in poem #37 and wants Ipsitilla to only be with him for the night. Whether he is a desperate man trying to fill a void in his heart is something I think is surfacing. He perhaps might have been hurt in the past and tries to find love through women who can’t really hurt him or leave him. He can come and go as he pleases and these women will still be there because it is what they do. So by being with these women, he can fill the empty void that he seems to have.

My definition of romantic love is something that is abstract. It has different meanings to everyone one but has to have certain criteria. Love is a type of eudemonia that cannot be touched. Love is unexplainable and puts you at the highest euphoria a person can experience. Love is romantic and love is hate; love is real and love is bad. It is a feeling that cannot be described but only be felt. It is a connection and a bond. Not necessarily between only two people. I know from experience that you can love two people at the same time. It might not be that same type of love but is there and it is real. How this love develops is defined by the person who is giving and receiving the love but most of all I feel that love is changing.

Irina's Response

#1 Catullus' vision of love and beauty is very physical. He recognizes beauty in women saying that they are tall and regal, such as the case with Quintia. However optimal beauty and love can be found only in a woman that has both a beautiful face and curvaceous body. Thus we can infer that he falls in love with a woman physically and that satisfaction from that love can be achieved physically rather than emotionally or mentally.

#2 Poem #85 ..The two lines in this poem are universal and timeless. It basically describes the feeling that a person may get when being involved with someone. To be in a love/hate relationship means that although the person may want to leave the significant other, it is extremely difficult to do so. The ties that are made, or whatever bind the two people have, are so strong that it is difficult to leave. This feeling is extremely torturous as the individual doesnt know what to decide.
Poem #32.. In this poem he talks about visiting a prostitute and having sex with her. She fulfills his physical needs and satisfies his desires, thus him asking her to be her only customer, and also asking her not to leave anywhere. He wants her so that she can satisfy him 9 times, stating that hes already eaten and all he wants is for her to give him the permission to start. He's telling her that he ate and everything as to not waste time.
Poem 107.. In this poem, Catullus is expressing his extreme satisfaction from Lesbia and how she surrendered herself to him. He feels very pleased and fulfilled to have gotten satisfaction from her. He says that he finds it more pleasing than gold and that without it he isn't sure if he would be able to live. Catullus also says that he is happier with getting some from Lesbia, than a person that has a wife but isn't satisfied.

#3 My definition of romantic love is when two people love each other physically, emotionally, and mentally. Although physical satisfaction is extremely important in making a relationship work, a deeper connection has to exist in order to love. Love is also when two people accept each other and would do anything for one another.

Ira Cabrele - Catullus Poems

3. Going through the poems of Catullus, I see he writes mostly about his great Love Lesbia, and also about his friends (poem#13), homosexuality (poems #50 & 98) or condolences as in poem # 96 to his friend for the loss of his life. I see Catullus writes mostly about the people and things happening around him.
When it comes to Lesbia it looks to me that he sometimes has contradictory feelings. Sometimes he is madly in love with her, sometimes he sad and disappointed (poem # 8)and sometimes he is sarcastic.

I loved poem# 5 that he wrote to Lesbia. This is a beautiful example of what Romantic Love is. He is really in Love. Living those moments when you are with your beloved that you wish can last forever."The suns are able to fall and rise:When that brief light has fallen for us,we must sleep a never ending night."
This is such a beautiful poem that to me it seems timeless. It was written so many centuries ago and still it sounds beautiful in our days. This is one of my favorite poems of Catullus.

Also poem # 101 is very touching and emotional. He is writing about the loss of his brother. He seems very close to his brother.

Sometimes Catullus sounds rude. For example poem # 30 is a strong poem about one of his friends who turned traitors. He seems not to have any compassion towards such friends "Who will make damn sure that you regret your deeds afterwards, my friends".

Sometimes Catullus is obscene as in poem # 39 when he speaks of a certain Egnatius who has beautiful white teeth. He is always smiling,appropriately or inappropriately, in order to show off his brilliant white teeth. The secret of his beautiful smile, however, is the urine with which he cleans them."so that the more polished those teeth of yours are,the more urine they proclaim you to have drunk."

In poem # 80 he speaks of a certain Gellius famous for his homosexual affairs. When I think of these poems about homosexuality I cannot help but think that even in our modern era homosexuality is seen as a bad thing. Homosexuality has always existed.

And so has prostitution as he writes in his poem # 32.

Catullus through his poems has given us a very clear picture of his time.
It is an era made up with corruption, traitors, prostitution, homosexuality, extramarital affairs... It was in fact the end of the Roman Republic and the decline of an Era.